AHA Would Like Your Thoughts!!!

[Stephen Fowler]

In the opening post below the poster says that he wants to breed his big, adult Burmese Pythons. Given the fact that the AHA Hot-Line Crew has to deal with (dispose of) sometimes as many as four unwanted Burmese Pythons a week, we suspect that there is a huge market excess of these special needs creatures. Some of these animals are abandoned in apartments some are simply dumped on us. I am currently holding a huge 50-pound Burmese Python and a hatchling Burmese Python that were turned in to us. We are concerned that the less than responsible ownership of large snakes like this, which this excess of animals supports, will lead to (fuel the case of) more proposed total bans on reptile ownership. There is a reptile ban being considered in Chicago and New York as we speak.

1) We wonder at the ethics of breeding more of these very prolific creatures?? An adult Burmese Python can produce 80 eggs in one clutch.

2) What do the forum members think about this issue??

3) Do you think that the AHA needs to have a stated opinion on issues of this nature?? This question is for AHA members only.

Similar questions could also be asked about Green Iguanas. I was asked while on a Hot-Line call last week by a lady who wanted to know how to incubate her 38 newly laid Iguana eggs. She had homes for three animals. The AHA had picked up six unwanted Iguanas the same week. She was quite offended when I suggested that she might want to incubate only three eggs as she had received the Iguanas from an Iguana rescue group in a free adoption. I was quite serious, however. Iguanas can be Neutered and Spayed.

We would love to hear from all of you on all the possible sides to these issues as the AHA board has a committee that is currently writing an ethics statement for our club. Considered input is very welcome.

Stephen
President AHA

[Andyr]

I'll be the first to pipe in.
1) As for Breeding large snakes it should not be considered any different than breeding Corns, Kings, Balls, Gophers ECT...
Whoever decides to breed ANY animal "SHOULD" have a market for those animals already set. If you are just doing it to "See if I Can" that's wrong. Those in the Snake trade know that the market for these big guys is not great so they stay away, they know what they can sell.

Do you think that the AHA needs to have a stated opinion on issues of this nature??

Yes, we do need to promote the long term issues with keeping these animals. At the last show one member was going to bring in some of his "Big Guys" and let people see how big they do get. It would also be great to see a realistic food bill for these animals.

Our biggest uphill battle is with the people Who "Just Don't Care, I'll do what I want". I had A lady wanting to surrender her Iguana to the Hotline Because it was now over 5', I told her that was a normal size, "Is there anything wrong with it?" Her reply was "I like the Small ones".

Education is the answer.

Andyr ><>

[Stephen Fowler]

You have the educated realism of a man who has been dealing with the public on the AHA hot-line.
Sure you don't want to be on the board??
Stephen

[KKC]

My opinion on this covers the side of the large snake owner and also the side of the person answering the hotline and also picking up animals that have been turned over or abandoned.

I do agree with the fact that there are alot of large boids that are picked up by the hotline on a yearly basis. But you also have to look at the number of other animals that are turned over. How many Ball Pythons, Corn snakes and non native Kings have been raffled and or adopted as well. There are people out there that do not belong having and or breading them, but the club taking a stance agnist it will not make a difference in my opinion. People are going to do what they want to do.

[reptilist]

I personally discourage people/kids from adopting boids because of the long term issues. When I do classroom reptile talks, my 7' boa makes the case for me.

I also don't like going into a pet store and seeing broods of pythons/boas/iguanas just waiting for the unsuspecting beginner-herpers.



:bright

[Wlydcard]

I could not agree with Andy more,

As to ownership of large snakes i myself am getting back into the bigger ones and finding new homes for my smaller ones,but as Andy also stated i have kept large ones for 20 years now and have the knowledge and expierence to deal with them.

I have been in retail stores and heard guys say "i want the meanest snake you guys have" and they sell it to them.

So to again agree with Andy,education IS the key.

We the AHA,yes should take a stand on this,i have seen retail stores again sell people a snake(baby red-tail),10 Gal tank and say have fun,i wanted to pound the crap out of the 17 year old pimple face punk.

But as to do i say we ban people from selling large snakes on our site or other drastic measures,NO Corn snakes can hit 6 ft+ and eat large rats,i have one over 5 Ft that can take Meduim Rats with ease, and she is still growing,in my opinion i see no differnece in that vs. the larger Python's.

I do agree that everyone should know up front what they are going to deal with when that snake hits its max size,for example at our shows we could pass out Papers about snakes maxium size and feeding costs per year at out greeting tables.

Those of us like myself that go over 6' and 300 lbs. can deal with a 15 ft+ snake better than the 18 year old 5'2" 100 lb. guy that has never dealt with one before,let alone been bit by one.

Just my opinion,hope it helps,its hard to top Andy's coments,but easy to relate and add to them,thanks

Mark

[MikeB]

We are seeing more and more herps come in from rescues/turn-ins and I think we are starting to see what animal shelters have had to deal with for years. Dogs and cats are overproduced year after year and many are abandoned for some of the same reasons people get tiered of caring for them, or that little puppy is now too big. This fight has been going on for years and judging by the number of animals euthanized each year the fight is not going well. I feel that as reptiles become more and more popular the situation will only get worse. I do think it is good to educate as much as we can and to come out and have a stand on this issue, but I think we have to be realistic about where it will head.

[HERPSKEEPER]

I dont even know were to start on this subject.

I know that there are more snakes for sale then people willing to buy them. I myself have taken in several large pythons that needed a good home, my last one was a very aggresive 13footer that was going to be killed by animal control, now that i have her she is taming down and now has a chance to live a full life. I understand the fact that i might not sell all my offsring to good homes, i understand that these snakes can grow to be 20ft and bigger, thats why im building a large addition to my house for all my snakes, thats why i am raising chickens and rabbits. I know what im getting my self into. I dont see why it would be any different from breeding boas or cornsnakes or anything else. There are just as many corns and kings in need of homes as there are burmese pythons........why is it that this issue hasnt been brought up be for? Why now? Why after i post about breeding my burms? Why me?

[hermitcore]

The big difference is the amount of care that is required by these monsters. The sheer amount of food, the huge size of their cages and the manpower needed to safely deal with them creates quite a challenge for anyone, even an experienced herper. An abandoned ball python requires a rubber maid box 1' x 2' x 6". An abandoned adult burm requires at least a 6' x 3' x 3' cage. A rat a week vs 30 or 40 pounds of rabbits/goats/pigs. The differences are huge.

I have a good sized normal female retic that I contemplated breeding before coming to the same conclusion Stephen Fowler has. How many of these snakes will find good homes? How many of them will live full lives? I don't think many will, so I chose not to breed her. The fact that there are a very large number of burms and retics being sold everyday, yet there are few people that own true monsters is very telling. I don't think many of these snakes make it to their full size. There aren't a lot of people who can house and feed a 20+ foot snake properly.

I've sold off all but my last retic just due to the food costs alone. I can't afford to spend hundreds of dollars a month anymore keeping everyone well fed. I love retics and will most likely get back into them when money is not an issue. I don't think I'll ever breed them as there's currently way more supply than demand.

Just my two cents.

[Reptile Babe]

That is the biggest thing that people who own ANY kind of reptile is lacking. Not to get mean or anything but there are alot of reptile people out there that will NOT give any info out, even if they have it. So people who do want to learn are not given the chance. Or they go get it off some website and hope it is the truth. Come on, WE all have thoughts on how a animal should be house and they are all a little different from the next. Personaly I think that we as reptile people need to make ourseleves more available to the public to give out the correct info. Also to step in when we do hear things that are said that are wrong. Such as the "iggie that the people did not know would get that big", or "they didn't know it would cost that much to feed or how often". How many of us have gotten in a reptile that has had metabolic bone disease or is very under fed. How many of us have heard " That what the Pet Store told me to do"? Petco and Petsmart would make everyone's life a lot easier if they would give there staff better education about what they are selling. Not just reptile's either. I am not trying to single them out and I know it is not just them. But it is place's like those who hire teenagers off the street with out any (correct) information or experience. I enjoy all of my reptile's, I would hate for someone who doesn't have any reptile's, make the decision on weather I can keep them or not and how many I may have. Education is the key to the sucess for all of us.

[Eevelsmf]

Ok....here goes.

To equate a corn and a burmese is...rediculous.

Its like saying a yorkshire terrier is the same as a great dane.

Finding homes for corns is easy. We can give them away no problem. Finding homes for a 12+ ft (and growing!!)Burmese/Retic/Rock....whatever...is extremely difficult. These animals can be a handfull. These animals can actually be dangerous. People have died here in the USA. Nobody ever died from a corn snake constriction.

As for Iguana's....ask the PHS how many they have. Then ask how long before they reach saturation point, and can no longer take rescues in.

Ask the zoo about Red Eared Sliders......they only own 13. They actually keep 116. All midnight donations from couldn't-care-less-owners.

Good point about the pound. 900 cats/dogs euthanised each week. Yes...per week, not month. Try multiplying that by 52 weeks in a year.

Records are not kept on reptiles, apart from new imports. Latest Dept of Agriculture (I think) figures state 90% of imported reptiles die within their first year. Mainly through neglect.

Hence, Herpkeeper, the concern about breeding big animals. This is NOT a personal attack on you. However, the concern is, in short, there is nowhere for these animals to go. Not everybody is like you, myself, PJ (who has the best setup ever) etc, etc. We will keep our animals till the end. Once these animals get big, Average Joe public will either release it, accidentally kill it, or pass it on to organisations like ourselves, manned by volunteers like me, Andy, Brendan, Ron etc etc, and all the rest of the hotline guys who run the gauntlet every day, trying to rescue these animals we care about. However.... the problems have then only just begun. Once we rescue them, what do we do with them?

Like the dog pound, we are left with few choices. The euthanasia option is abhorent to us. Finding suitable homes is near impossible. Thats why Steve has a 12ft Burm sat in his snake room. It has nowhere to go.

How many members of the AHA actually want to keep, house and feed a large python/Boa? Out of all the people who will read this, I will wager money there are only a few who want to, and who are capable of doing so, and can actually afford to do so

Hence, If you are breeding...check your market. If the market is flooded, if your "breed" is constantly being rescued, then do not breed. You are a another statistic/hotline call waiting to happen.

Should we have a "code of ethics" on all this. Damned right we should!!. What are we here for otherwise? Should we turn more efforts into educating people about these animals. How can anybody think not to. Of course we should.

Herpkeeper...do not take all this personally.

M:)

[Timekeep69]

ok here goes my opinion....

I think that we should educate people. What defines "Code of Ethics?" Would that be discourage breeding altogether or just large boids?

Mark brings up a valid point that taking care of a large boid and taking care of a colubrid are completely different monsters but that doesn't mean the colubrid market isn't as saturated as the boid market. Just look at the past few AHA expos, nearly all vendors had colubrids only. I think if the AHA is going to take a stance to discourage breeding, then the board members should also abstain from breeding animals or else people will cry hypocrasy. I don't think it would be right for any AHA member to sit there and tell people they shouldn't breed but then show off their latest hatchlings.
As far as boids are concerned, Burmese Pythons, Ball Pythons, and Columbiam Boas are the three species that dont' need anymore breeders (I'm talking normal morphs). They're EVERYWHERE. It's almost safe to say that you can't GIVE any of these species away much less sell them.

I think we need to concentrate more on educating people about how big Burmese and Retic Pythons get, How much they eat, how you need to handle them as adults. I think that if someone is interested in breeding, they should be educated in what it will take to do it (rack systems, SPACE, the fact that they probably won't sell half their clutch, etc.).


I was at the last Predator expo and as I was walking out, I watched a teenager with his new baby burmese python. He was reading the care sheet and saying "Wow! this snake will get to be 15 feet!" I just about walked up to him to give him the AHA hotline number because his mom was sitting next to him not wanting to even look at the snake. I'm sure we'll be picking it up in a year or so. I also wanted to ask him who he bought it from so I could stick my foot up the vendors a$$.

Just my $.02

[falconer1]

you have to take at test to keep large snakes? I had to take a 100 question test given by the state (plus jump thru a few other hoops as well) in order to get my falconry permit. What if you had to do the same in order to keep/breed large snakes. I know the gov't usually screws up anything that they get involved in, but do you think that is an option? Not my opinion, just a thought.

[reptilist]

I know the gov't usually screws up anything that they get involved in

Precisely why NOT!

[Timekeep69]

If it were up to the government, NO ONE would have large boids.

[rae3rott]

ok here's the opinion of someone who's entire life has been dedicated to the subject at hand.
Stephen you bring up an age old question, one with no answer. breeding = money
that's the sad truth.
honest people like myself won't breed, but we save the world by taking these remarkable creatures in and letting them live their lives out.we lose out, as do the animals. we pay to feed and nurture while the breeders produce more.if we stop the animals die, if we keep doing it we encourage the breeders to produce more.
so how do we win? EDUCATION!
we cannot reach everyone but we can reach one or two......it is the small things that matter!
a few decades ago no one knew what a spay or neuter was, now it is so common that people see it as part of pet ownership. we need to change the ideas of reptiles and how to own them.we need to go out and get in peoples faces and teach them that these animals cost X amount to maintain and can be spayed and neutered and that no one wants to buy their offspring.
as far as the AHA having a stance about banning it for members. as i recall Stephen don't you breed Sulcatas?? now THERE is an animal that is constantly being rescued by the AHA AND is HUGE and has few homes, also requires extensive feeding regimens and space. are you willing to stop??
let's just all think long and hard about this!

[Loteer]

I think that as a whole the AHA should have some kind of ethics statement.

I'm not the first one to say this but it all comes down to education and responsibility. Now i do plan on breeding Boids in 2-3 years. Hopefully snows or some other type of Boa. Still researching but i already know that i wont breed Columbian Boas i got my first Redtail a few months ago and have already come across two people that were trying to get rid of theirs because they were to much and those were only in the 5 foot range.

I dont think anyone should be ban from posting larde boids or any reptile on the forum less there is concern of neglect or illegal activity. Specially since we might be able to help in placemet to more responsible people.

Just a story i would like to share I NEVER SHOP AT PETCO! I used to keep marine aquaria. Was in Petco one time with a friend and saw a store clerk try to sell a Yellow Tang "salt water fish" to a person that was complaining that a previous one had died. He asked if she let the fish acclimate to the tank before introducing it and she said no. Then told her that was the reason it died. Then she said she kept an Oscar also so i piped in and asked if it was a salt or fresh water tank. Come find out it was a fresh water tank. I told her that you cant keep salt water fish in fresh water or they would die. The clerk then proceded to argue with me about the subject
:HMAD:

[JJFeldner]

Q."How many Ball Pythons, Corn snakes and non native Kings have been raffled and or adopted as well.(?)"
The answer to this question is - not many, lately. Since we became a a 501(c) 3 organization, we are not allowed to hold auctioins and that is where we made some real money on surrender animals. We have had a few burms and balls lately but hardly any other snakes. A lot of redears, however, as well as too damned many Iguanas 3' and up.

[Reptile Babe]

Who will be the person or people that decided what the code of ethics be? Also do you all think people will really follow them? Will it be the person breeding these reptiles or will it be the person against it? Who is to say one is right & one is wrong? We can’t say both because we will never all agree. At the same time if we don’t do something then the government will step in, we all know we don’t want that, right? What will that do to all of us that want to house more than 3 or 4 or who would like to breed the better quality? I read somewhere that in Vermont they are giving you a limit, even shelters, even sanctuaries etc. Who is to say that a person breeding large snake vs. the person breeding any other thing like monitors, Iggies and ball pythons, Gecko’s, Bearded dragon (all plain Jane normal stuff) is any better. Yes, you can stick them in a tote and stack up 4 or 5 in a corner. But is that a better life for that animal? It’s not the size of the animal; it is the Education of the owner to be informed of all the difficulty of owning reptiles. We need to look at it as if they are kids. But the general public doesn’t! To most people, Reptile’s are something you get, throw it in a cage, and show off to your friends ever once in a while and if it dies it dies. They have no clue what it takes to take care of them. But I still say it is up to all of us as reptile people to tell people when they are doing wrong and when we here of reptile store’s selling someone the wrong thing or not giving all the info we need to step up. I think we all need to look at ourselves and think, have we been forward enough and have we stepped in when we need too. We would all like to look at others and point. But can we afford to do that?

[Eevelsmf]

OK...Its Friday, and I'm off out partying!!

However....before I go....

The size of the animal IS important. Try rehoming a 15 burm.

PJ...like you, I only wish to prevent animals being bred when they have little/no hope of living out a full life. I am sick of picking them up on the hotline.There is a "caring" market for the morphs, wether they are snow boas or albino corns. But the run-of-the-mill stuff has nowhere to go.Its a near impossible situation as Rachael states, but should we not try to do something? The hotline is running out of places to put these big snakes, but people are still breeding them. The original question was...should we do something here, or just allow it to happen?

The club as a whole will decide on its ethics. Not one person.

If people choose to ignore those ethics...well...are they not the ones the club needs to debate upon? Shall we allow them to sell through this very forum? Shall we just bury our heads in the sand, or protect ourselves, and our club, and our hobby?

If we do not decide on some way to regulate ourselves, then just as in other states, somebody else will do it for us.

If we are not seen to be responsible, we will all pay dearly.

You have been given fair warning.

More on this later.....

M

[falconer1]

If we do not decide on some way to regulate ourselves, then just as in other states, somebody else will do it for us.


Exactly what happened to my falconry organization a long time ago.

[Kestrel]

I am a huge fan of the giants.. I currently keep scrub pythons, retics and burms, and truely KNOW how to deal with them, their peak size, and am prepared.. My retic currently resides in a 160sq ft cage in my basement.. But the truth is, there aren't many people out there HONOSTLY WILLING to do this when they purchase a cute little baby giant from a breeder or petshop.. IMO, you have a much higher chance of selling higher end morphs of these snakes then you do normals or average albinos.. If you seriously HAVE to breed your animals, at least work with the morphs that have a better chance of going to someone who knows what they're getting into, and are willing to pay more then 20 dollars for them...

Up here in Washington we have a bill that has returned 3 years in a row now, to ban all "wild and dangerous" animals, including all snakes that reach lengths beyond 6ft, all larger monitors, and all species of venomous reptile. I am part of our states Herp Society, and last year we tried our darndest in court to propose something similar to Florida's apprenticeship and permit laws that they have for venomous. I _LOVE_ this idea, and if it comes down to it, you guys should propose it as well. Something like a 1 year apprenticeship program, then a moderately priced annual permit put in place for ALL large reptiles. Its a big step, and not one that many states will try, but its worth a shot.. If one state can do something like this, then others could too.

I too am sick of seeing large herps tossed away like junk. Our society is capped out on iguanas and large redtail boas.. We get quite a few burms and retics as well, most in pretty bad shape.. Just last month, somebody brought what they thought was a green anole in to me at work.. It was a poor hatchling iguana they had rescued from their grandson, because his mother bought it for him, and it had been living in an unheated critter keeper for 3 months. The grandparents had upped his housing to a 29gallon tank and were trying their best to care for it, but really had no idea what to do with it(they had been feeding it iceburge lettuce and crickets... He now lives happily with me, recovering... So yes, please think before you breed or buy these specialized animals..

[Kestrel]

If someone would like some hard numbers.. I recently added up the food bill for just my retic alone in the past 2 years that i've had him, in rats and rabbits(him going from 5ft to 11ft).. your lookin at around 1300 dollars on that snake alone for 2 years of feeding.. And thats if you buy them dirt cheap in bulk like I do from RodentPro.com...

[snakebiteAZ1]

"Screw it" take up needlepoint, sit in a glass bubble and wait for the end of time... And this is supposed to be the best country to live in, sounds like we are in the Soviet Union

[snakebiteAZ1]

you need to find a good hog farmer, i'm buying all my 10 lb. pigs for five dollars each i feed each one of mine every two weeks that's only 10 dollars per snake per month, of course as they get larger they will eat larger items, but still you can find good prices if you look, people on here only look in phoenix at the pet stores for rodents, who wants to pay 8 dollars for a frozen jumbo, tonite i just bought 50 lbs of rabbits 2 bags of chicks, 50 med rats and 25 small rats for 62.78 Anyway look around, you can get good deals on frozen rodents.. Around here you would think rats are gold plated..

[Timekeep69]

Bottom line is there are many species of snakes that are being over bred. Why single out Burms? I've seen more Boas and Sulcattas as rescues than Burms. I've heard from some pet store owners that they couldn't even give a Columbian boa away. Just because it's easier to keep 15 corns than it is to keep 5 burms, that makes it ok? Corns, milksnakes, and Kingsnakes are probably over bred more than Burms are simply BECAUSE they're smaller and easier to handle!

If the AHA is going to take a stance against breeding, the board members also need to set the example. Stephnen Fowler, the president of the AHA, you breed Colubrids (dont' you have something like 100 breeding snakes?), dogs, sulcattas, miniature donkeys, as wells as many species of birds. How can you, with a clear conscience, post that it is wrong to breed burms and/or other large boids because of their care requirements when you pretty much do the same thing? Like Raechel said in her post, Sulcattas are a lifelong commitment. They grow to exceed 100 pounds, can live to be over 100 years, and need an outdoor pen. How is that different than a burmese python? Hell, Burmese pythons only live 20 years! They don't need outdoor pens! Yet you breed Sulcattas.

I'm really sorry Stephen that you have to care for a few rescued burms that you don't want to care for, but considering I've been caring for a stunted Indian Python that was rescued and is now owned by the AHA and have recieved ZERO assistance in caring for it (it came with a cage that was WAY too small for it and I haven't received any food and only one reimbursement, I just happened to owe you the same amount of money as the AHA owed me), I find it hard to feel sorry for you.

Honestly, if the AHA wants to take a stand and discourage breeding, it can't have a President who is a breeder of many animal species.


Just my additional $.02

[KKC]

I agree with you 100% PJ. But I think this is a concept that the current board is not willing to open there eyes to. I have asked myself a few times why this post was even started? The Board is going to write up what they want and how they want it, but it is still up to the General membership to approve it into the Bylaws. If you agree with it, dandy that is your right. If you disagree with it, great, but it is our (the keepers of the giants) responibility to help educate the ones that think they are ready to own one, not try to tell them that they should not own them or can not post sales or wish's on this public forum.

[katsnake]

Having just sent in my dues a week ago to finally join this Assoc., I would like to say that I agree with the majority of people that have posted, there should be a code of ethics, there should also be more education of the masses.

We should do our best to encourage the PetCo/Petsmart type of stores to make sure that the consumer knows how big that cute baby Berm/retic/corn/kingsnake/iguana/monitor is going to get, maybe provide them with a way to create a tape or marker outline of just how big an adult of each species they sell will be if it was laying on the floor. Also a projected cost of the monthly/annual food bill of the species at each stage of their lives (baby, sub-adult, adult) that can be listed next to each tank. People have to know what they are getting themselves into.

The pet store's cooperation is necessary. They will fight us on this, as it would affect their bottom line. Maybe if they agree to certain code of ethics in their sale, they could have a sign in the window saying they are endorsed by the AHA and have a link to the website here listed in the endorsement.

Personally, I know that I will never be in a place that I could feel comfortable with a boid of any kind, because I know how large they get, what the food bill is, and I am more than willing to stick to colubrids. I know I can handle them, this is not to say that I am against people having boids, they are magnificent. But to have a large pet of any species and not be aware of it's potential food bill, potential size is reckless. (This holds true to not just large snakes/lizards, but also large breeds of dogs, the big cats, and so on) We have to discourage the recklessness of the people who sell these herps to the public. Not every pet owner is willing to research their potential next pet, and we as a group must try our level best to get those that want a reptile to be educated and informed about their new pet.

We also need to discourage reckless breeding "just to see if I can do it" which I have been guilty of thinking of doing in a few years. I just now know that there is a glut in the market and so won't breed my corns when they are old enough, unless I know I can find quality homes for the babies, or be prepared to keep all of them myself.

[reptilist]

But don't even think about telling people what they can, or cannot do.

I think colubrids are the best, yet I have a representative boa...Fortunately she earns her keep by being a major playor in my snake safety talks, otherwise I might even be thinking of passing her on to someone else.
I agree that Sulcattas need to be included within the discussion too...granted they are not a safety issue, but consciencious (sp?)husbandry IS.

Herpskeeper...I'm not agin ya...just have a look at the big picture with regard to your python offspring.

[LKFCPA]

Originally posted by Timekeep69
I've been caring for a stunted Indian Python that was rescued and is now owned by the AHA and have recieved ZERO assistance in caring for it (it came with a cage that was WAY too small for it and I haven't received any food and only one reimbursement, I just happened to owe you the same amount of money as the AHA owed me

As Treasurer of the AHA, I have yet to receive a request for reimbursement from you, although Stephen as asked you for one. It needn't be fancy, but if I don't know how much you've spent on feed I can't cut you a check.

Linda

BTW the baby sulcattas you and Racheal saw at our home are not ours. We are caring for them for someone else. Our two rescue torts are not old enough to breed.

[HERPSKEEPER]

Originally posted by reptilist
Herpskeeper...I'm not agin ya...just have a look at the big picture with regard to your python offspring.

I know your not "agin" me.

This years clutch isnt looking to good, dont think any are going to hatch...oh well. With the subject of breeding my burms, im not breeding just to sell them all off, i was planning on keeping a bunch for my personal collection.

[Timekeep69]

Originally posted by LKFCPA


As Treasurer of the AHA, I have yet to receive a request for reimbursement from you, although Stephen as asked you for one. It needn't be fancy, but if I don't know how much you've spent on feed I can't cut you a check.

Linda

BTW the baby sulcattas you and Racheal saw at our home are not ours. We are caring for them for someone else. Our two rescue torts are not old enough to breed.

I told Stephen that I didn't have a receipt. I told him since I owed him $100 for some cyprus I got from him, which was about the same amount owed to me for rabbits, let's just call if even. He said ok. He also asked me how many rabbits I would need to feed it for a year. I told him twelve 7 - 10lb rabbits would last a year. I never heard back from him.

PJ

[LKFCPA]

As trustee of the clubs funds, I need a paper trail. No receipt…how about a copy of the feeding card and a note of what the feed item costs? I can’t reimburse Stephen for you. He said “ok”, but we still need that invoice.

[Reptile Babe]

So why are we not out educating the public? If we all agree on the subject(more or less)why have'nt the "club" set up more things to educate them? Why are we doing shows that sell reptile's twice a year instead of doing more education. Why has'nt anyone set up school, church, shows, etc.? We are never going to agree who is right and who is wrong. We all can point fingers at everyone else but does it do any good? With the code of ethics is it going to state that there is no breeding what so ever? Or are the ones breeding the big stuff going to get singled out? To my knoweldge the is a public forum and a public club, does the club you have the stance to say that we can or can not do something? Yes, granted you can vote us out of the club. Who's to say that those people will not go start there own!!!!!! Or even better join the another one!! Everyone has been talking about the dangers of owning big snakes, what about the who own vemoids? Are they wrong too? The are just as dangerous if not worst than owning the burms, etc.. Personaly I own both and have a great deal of respect for both, but any joe blow can go to Walmart and get a hunting license !!! If anyone has not noticed that Fowler has not responed to any of us on this subject. He started the thread but has said nothing more. Some have mad vailded points about him on this and has asked questions on the subject but has not gotten a answer on any of it? why do you think that is? Anyone? Fowler?

[Timekeep69]

I shouldn't have to jump through hoops for doing the AHA a favor!! I agreed to take care of this snake under the agreement that the AHA would provide food for it! The AHA has provided nothing but buerocratic bull****.

PJ

Originally posted by LKFCPA
As trustee of the clubs funds, I need a paper trail. No receipt…how about a copy of the feeding card and a note of what the feed item costs? I can’t reimburse Stephen for you. He said “ok”, but we still need that invoice.

[MRC]

PJ for president !!!

[KKC]

I second that nomination! PJ for pres.

[HERPSKEEPER]

PJ what kind of snake is it?

[Timekeep69]

A nearly 20 year old, 12ft Indian Python.

[HERPSKEEPER]

Shouldnt a 20 year old indian be up around 19-20ft?

[garry]

I've often wondered what happens to the surplus baby snakes that are born every year, not just the pythons but the colubrids as well. I don't breed snakes myself. I have six snakes that I condider pets. I do not want to produce snakes that I have no use for and would have difficulty finding GOOD homes for. I read an article in Reptiles magazine where the author used "culled" baby snakes to entice picky kingsnakes to feed. Culled! It sounds like we are heading down the same road as dog breeders. If it does't have the "proper" traits just euthanize it. I know this may be a little off subject but what applies to pythons also applies to all other snakes but for different reasons. Don't breed them if you have no where for them to go. And if you're producing dozens of unwanted normal snakes just to get 1 unusual morph, where do the other snakes end up? I'm not sure I want to know.

[Timekeep69]

Originally posted by HERPSKEEPER
Shouldnt a 20 year old indian be up around 19-20ft?


Typically yes. This snake was either stunted or just plain not fed well enough.

[Donna]

Originally posted by garry
I read an article in Reptiles magazine where the author used "culled" baby snakes to entice picky kingsnakes to feed. Culled! And if you're producing dozens of unwanted normal snakes just to get 1 unusual morph, where do the other snakes end up? I'm not sure I want to know.

I'm usually one who gets all worked up at various animal abuse and ethics subjects however culling isn't something I am bothered by and I'd like to explain why so that maybe you might have a different view to consider. In nature any animal that isn't up to par becomes someone's dinner. In captivity we have this desire to save each and every critter we can. I'm VERY guilty of this. However by doing so, we can actually do more harm to our captive gene pool by introducing weak genetics from NOT culling. I firmly believe that only the strongest most qualified animals be used for breeding. If you don't, many generations down the line you'll suddenly run into all kinds of genetic problems. A good example of this is deafness in Dalmatians. This is especially a problem when you are breeding a species for color or markings. The normal animal with a strong genetic back ground is dropped from breeding programs to favor an income producing animal who's genetic background could be compromised due to inbreeding or line breeding.

Nature has it's own way to cull out the weak and we go to heroic efforts to save the weak and then we pass on their genetics, weakening our gene pool. If we are fortunate enough to have a use for culled animals (like feeding them to other animals) then we are doing something right.

It took a long time for me to become comfortable with culling. We bred fish (Beta's) and there were always fish who didn't thrive and of course there was always a surplus of females and no market. Rather than 'flush' or kill them, we decided to buy a couple of Oscars and they ate our culls. Our efforts resulted in fish that lived 3-4 times longer than the imported ones and they were 75% larger.

Donna

[JJFeldner]

stunted. Reptilebabe, the job of Education Coordinator for the club is open. If you wish to apply, I think you will have no trouble getting it. I hope you have a lot of time because that is what the job takes - time. Billie Casillas has been doing a great job in education and it is obvious you don't attend meetings or you would know more about the various venues and the T-I-M-E our member-volunteers put in on education. Of course, it gets busier when school is in session. You don't have to make a public announcement - just tell Steve at teh next meeting and I am sure Billie will give you the benefit of her experience.

[garry]

Perhaps my camparison to dog breeders was a little off. If an animal is abnormal and genetically defective culling it would be a humane way to go. If a snake were to hatch out with its bottom jaw missing I think "culling" it would be appropiate. But when we get to the point where normal healthy hatchlings are used as feeders I think the hobby is going down the wrong road. If we can take a healthy snake (captive born or wild) and feed it to one of our pets how can we condemn the average person when he takes a hoe to a gopher snake in his backyard? Oh, just to get back to the original topic,I think there should be more educational programs. Not just to educate people about native reptiles but to actually dissuade people from buying large constrictors, tortoises and lizards. These animals are becoming the abandoned dogs and cats of the herp world. As one person said earlier in this post if we don't regulate ourselves someone will step in and do it for us.

[Kerwin Ross]

Over abundance of colubrids?? Not yet....maybe in the future...but not yet. I've been breeding kings, corns, milks, etc... for quite a few years. Supply and Demand decides what will be produced and the price. Last year I produced around 500 babies. I have 4 left over. And that is because they are probably over priced LOL. And this year's eggs are due to hatch starting next week. And I'm sure after the Albuequrque show, I won't have many left, and then by next year I will be all sold out - AGAIN. Over produced... NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Kerby...

[Steve]

PJ,

I don't see what the problem is here. The Treasurer must show where and why AHA money is spent.

All Linda asked for was a written request for payment that she can use to show legitimate expenditure of AHA funds. She has to do her duty for the AHA and for the AHA members. Money can't just be handed out without a paper trail.

You don't have a receipt. OK. Can't you write something that shows X amount of feedings for X amount of money spent on food?

It would get you paid and fill the requirement that the club's money be accounted for.

Best regards,
Steve

[DSquared]

Hello, I am board member for the PHS. I would like to share with you our point of view on this subject. First we feel that breeding should be conducted by responsible reptile hobbist. That before one chooses to breed reptiles that one should research the market and ensure that the demand is there. I for one can speak about the iguanas. We are currently housing 40+ iguana's. This is very sad, and the public seems to think that we can just get rid of them because they are not worth anything. Bottom line is that the iguana has as much right to live as any other creature. It did not ask to be put in this situation. We beleive that education is the key. Do we beleive that permits should be required to house the big guys - NO. However, in saying that people need to be smarter about what they are purchasing. We have been very successful in our education program. Our shows do not have vendors selling reptiles. I am not saying that it is wrong to sell at the shows, but have you ever heard a vendor at a reptile show discourage someone from purchasing a burm or explaining the husbandry, care and size to a potential buyer? Or, have you ever heard a vendor ask if the the buyer was experienced in reptiles? It is the responsibility of all AHA and PHS members to educate whenever possible. Debbie