Gopher Snake On the Plateau

[Gila Kid]

I found a great tempered goppher snake off of highway 87 north of Blue Ridge Ranger Station, and south of Winslow. She has very dark spots with a peach/orange background color. My question is what sub species is this? Is it a great basin gopher. If so, is it an unusual color, because the others I have seen look much more bland with more mottleing like a sonoran gopher, but they were from other areas.

[Kerwin Ross]

According to range maps, it should be a Sonoran Gopher as the Great Basin should be more north, but there is a natural intergrade. The few that I have seen from that area were Sonorans but others think they may be an intergrade.

Kerby...

[Gila Kid]

Thanks for the info Kerby. The elevation on my GPS where I caught her was 6340' and the habitat was open park in the valleys and pinyon/juniper woodlands on the hillsides. It was about 30 miles south west of Winslow. The area in question seems awfully high in elevation and in lattitude for it to be a Sonoran. If anyone else has seen one in this area or has a picture of one let me know. I'll try to get a picture posted of her.

[JJFeldner]

9,000 feet in elevation so Winslow is not too high for Pits. I agree with Kerby. It should be a Sonoran at that locality. You need to get north of the GC or west in GB Desert for Great Basins.

[Rich G.]

so it would be tough to say for sure. I know all the gopgers I have found in Winslow have been affinis X deserticola intergrades. But where it grades off to pure affinis to the south would not be far away. Here in Flagstaff for example the Gophers are intergrades. But only 20 miles south at Munds Park the snakes look to be pure affinis, and I am sure they would be pure affinis a few miles south of that when you drop off the rim. I have a pic of an intergrade snake from just north of Flagstaff somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.

[Gila Kid]

That would be great if someone had a picture of one from this area. I dont have a digital camera, but I do have a scanner so I will try to post pics of her. The main reason I want to know what she is, is because I have captive bred Sonorans that I would like to breed(male an a female). They are all in the same cage and I dont want to produce half breeds. If she is a Sonoran then her and my orange male would produce great looking babies. Also, breeding reptiles is something new to me, but I have read up on it. Does anyone know about breeding multiple females to one male. Is it feasable, what to look out for, etc etc. Thanx for the info guys.

[JJFeldner]

"Does anyone know about breeding multiple females to one male?"

Sure you can. That's why many breeders try to get 1.2 of a desireable animal. 1 is the male and 2 are the females. Pits should not be a problem to breed several females with one male.

[Gila Kid]

The darker one is from Winslow area, and the light one is from Sandy at the Gray Hawk Ranch in Sierra Vista.

[Rich G.]

an intergrade.

[Gila Kid]

So if this is an intergrade between affinis and deserticola then what are the implications of breeding her. Will anybody get mad at me for crossing them. I think they would turn out great and I have a few homes already lined up, but I still want to hear what y'all have to say.

[JJFeldner]

How picky can people be? Subspecies are indefinite taxa by anyone's reckoning. Depending on location and the animal in question, intergrade zones may be hundreds of miles (a certain midwest rat snake, I think) across or only a few miles across with the rest of the members being assigned to the two bordering ssp by dint of some character or other which may or may not be diagnostic. Call me insensitive but there are San Diego Gophers I have seen which I think should be Sonorans and vice versa. The only reason they are what they are is because of an arbitrary line drawn across a map by some expert. I have great respect for some of these experts but abandonment of field diagnostic characters cannot be far off as DNA analysis gets better, quicker and cheaper. Go ahead and breed them and call them both P.c.affinis and nobody will care.

[snake-hunter]

why couldnt he state before he sell that threyre is some desirticola?? i personally like to know exactly what im buying! alot of people do. i know in this case it may not be important but in many others it is. but it is good practice in the long run. people are always getting into fights at kingsnake.com about this. i think he should label the exact localities of the parents before the babies are headed off as pure affinis and then whaen they are bred the babies also called pure affinis. this could mess up everything in captivity!

[Gila Kid]

Quote :"Why couldn't he state before he SELLS that they're is some deserticola? I personally like to know exactly what I,m BUYING." Well for starters snakeboy regardless of which subspecies they are they are both native herpafauna, therefore cannot be sold within the state. IF and WHEN I do decide to breed them, the babies will be GIVEN to good homes. In past post I've noticed you talk about pits often and if I recall you might even have one. Now if you caught a snake that looked this good and had this good of a temperment I think you'd be wanting to breed as well.lol

[snake-hunter]

lol sorry i meant give it away. yes your right i would love to breed it and i encourage you to do so.yes i do own a sonoran gophersnake. i still think before you give them away that they should be labeled correctly. i think you get my point.

[JJFeldner]

get your point. Have you got DNA evidence that your Gopher is a Sonoran? I doubt it since I doubt highly whether the requisite work has been done to determine DNA markers which go along with morphic characters that determine what animals belongs to what ssp. No, you base the ssp of your animal on the range map which says that it should be P.c. affinis in the location in which it was found.
So, what do we call kingsnakes found on South Mountain that have black bellies? Just because they look like Cal Kings, doesn't that black venter indicate some influence from the south?
Personally, the more I think about it, the more I like Lee Grismer's idea of Pattern Classes vs. subspecies.

[snake-hunter]

no i have not got a dna test for my gophersnake but if i ever breed it if i dont get a dna test then i will say to who i give them to that they may not be pure affinis. theyre are many people who sell snakes way too high a price for nothing. say i had a normal columbian bci. i could just say it is possibly het. for snow or albino and add hundreds of dollars. really how many people do you think actually get dna tests on there snakes. sure some do but just regular old joe schmos most likely do not. yes this may be illegal but it happens.

[snake-hunter]

o and i forgot to say awesome lookin snakes gila kid!

[JJFeldner]

I didn't want you or anybody else to have their snakes DNA tested. I merely said that I didn't think that the requisite DNA work had been done on Pituophis to actually determine ssp. Some work is going to be done soon since I know that the Southern Baja Gopher is being proposed as a species in its own right. We shall see what we shall see. Oh, and don't get caught selling gophers in this state.

[snake-hunter]

why would i get caught selling native herpetofauna in this state if im not going to?? o and i wont sell any out of state either.

but tou did make a good point and we shall see what we see. lol that was good. cya later.

[Marty]

Based on the picture your snake looks to be a typical Sonoran gopher snake. I have a gopher snake from the Phoenix area that looks almost identical to the snake pictured from near Winslow. I don't see any patterning characters that would lead me to believe the snake was an intergrade.